Immanuel.at-Forum for Discussion Discourse 26: The Trinity: an unbiblical concept?

(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)

(The Trinity: an unbiblical concept? / Article TC00, 2001-01-28 +))

Many Christian groups use the concept of the Trinity without providing a more detailed definition. They limit themselves to saying that Christ is also God, and the Holy Spirit is a third "Person" of God. Descriptions such as these culminate in our having to imagine that God died on the cross, and Christ is the creator of the world. Is this a biblical view? Or is it not rather a vain attempt to force God, Christ and the Holy Spirit into the frame of a typically human conceptual model? (...)

So if we wish to have accurate knowledge of God ‒ a wish which ought to be dear to the heart of any serious Christian ‒ there is only one way open to us: that of reading God’s revelation, and taking it seriously. It is understandable that Christians should base their knowledge and their faith in the first instance on the statements made by the Lord Jesus Christ and his closest disciples. We will discover that the faith in one sole and unique God was the most important article of faith for early Christianity (Mat 23, 9; Rom 3, 30; 1. Cor 8, 4-6; Gal 3, 20; 1. Tim 2, 5). (...)

The way we relate to Jesus determines where we stand in relation to God, what we understand by God, what God we have. For many Christians it may sound strange to say %quot;what God we have%quot;. I have the impression, though, that the words of the apostle Paul (Eph 4,5) have not been taken very seriously. The doctrine of the Trinity was not put into concrete form until the third century, and the term itself is nowhere found in Holy Scripture! (...)

Christ was begotten (Hbr 1, 5), by the Holy Spirit of God (Lk 1, 35) and was a man (1Tim 2, 5). Any views that go beyond this are not biblical (...)

So we do not need a doctrine of pre-existence (sc. of Jesus Christ) so as to bolster the dogma of the Trinity. For me, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. In Jesus, the God who is well disposed to humanity comes close to me, through him God has himself spoken and acted, and given us a final revelation of himself.

+) This extract is taken from the article %quot;The God of the Bible%quot; by Tomas Cramer, on the website of the Urchristen - (Christadelphian) [Primitive Christians (Christadelphian)].

(http://www.christadelphian.de/nord/who.htm)

The remarks just quoted have to be taken quite seriously. The concept of the Trinity is indeed found nowhere in Scripture, and in many Christian groups there are no questions asked about the Trinity, or only superficial ones.

The doctrine of the Trinity.

The Trinity is the doctrine of the threefoldness of the Persons of God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in the unity of God’s being. It was developed in the first centuries of the Christian era on the basis of statements made in the New Testament about Jesus as the Son of God (e.g. Rom 1,3) and the eternal Logos (Jn 1,1-18), and about the Spirit, whom Jesus promises to send in Jn 14, as well as what constitutes the clearest formulation in Jesus’ command to baptize all nations in Mt 28,19.

According to this doctrine, the divine Persons are distinguished in such a way that the Son proceeds from the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. This Trinity in unity was defined in the third century AD. The unity in the Trinity consists in the fact that in terms of their divine nature and substance the three Persons are a single God: in their identity of being they are also identically eternal, in a unity of being wherein they mutually interpenetrate each other.

The heretical counterposition to this was Arianism, which held that the Son and the Holy Spirit were not of one being with the Father, subordinated them to him and so denied that they were God in the fullest sense. The dogma of the Trinity was defined at the First Council of Nicaea/Nikaia (325) and the First Council of Constantinople (381). It is shared by the eastern and western churches. Only the doctrine that the Spirit also proceeds from the Son is an occidental later development, which contributed to the divergence of the two churches.

According to the Catholic trinitarian theology of the present day, the Trinity, as a precondition of the Christian revelation, is a fundamental article of faith without which there can be no Christian belief at all.

The evangelical doctrine of faith treats the Trinity with some reserve, seeing that it is not explicitly attested by the New Testament. The controversy with the Anti-Trinitarians within the reformed churches has shown, however, that if the Trinity is abandoned, important fundamentals that are needed for the proper understanding of God’s revelation would likewise be lost. Consequently evangelical theology has often been inclined, ever since Schelling’s speculative idealism, to see the Trinity as a process of God’s revelation of himself.

The analysis.

In analyzing this theme, we must express our fundamental agreement right from the start with the statement made by the author quoted above, when he points out “that Christians base their knowledge and their faith in the first instance on the statements made by the Lord Jesus Christ and his closest disciples”. In this way we can safely assume that no dogmatic doctrinal approaches of any kind of official church, nor any personal preferences, but solely and uniquely the statements made by Holy Scripture will be taken as definitive.

We wish, then, to undertake an investigation, in the light of Scripture, of the question whether God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three Persons (Trinity in unity), and whether these three Persons, in terms of their divine nature, are a single God (unity in Trinity). To do this, we must admittedly first of all provide a definition for the criteria of a “person”. As with God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit we cannot be dealing with physical persons ‒ Jesus Christ too, in this context, is not to be viewed as the “Son of Man” but rather as the Son of God ‒ those psychological, philosophical and legal definitions which exclusively relate to human beings as persons can be left out of account.

Just this distinction is often overlooked in superficial analysis, resulting in views that attempt to depict God the Father as an old man with a white beard, and the Holy Spirit as a white dove.

So for our understanding of the divine Persons we cannot draw on the standards of human philosophy, such as “developed rational powers”, “an individuality conscious of itself”, etc., but must rely exclusively on spiritual criteria. Analogously to the human level, however, in the divine and spiritual sphere as well it is the self-sufficient activity of the individual being ‒ in separation from God the Father ‒ that makes up one of the fundamental criteria answering to the concept of a person.

A further characteristic is power of decision based on free will. This will also and above all be put to the proof when it is ‒ freely ‒ surrendered.

And finally the taking on of responsibility, and bearing of the consequences arising from self-sufficient activity and decisions that are freely made, may serve us as a third pillar of our assessment whether we here have to do with a person or not.

That God himself is on the one hand just “God”, and on the other hand possesses these spiritual properties of a person, may be assumed as self-evident. The Holy Spirit as well is a part of the one and only God, just as the human spirit is a part of the human being. The question whether the Holy Spirit can also be a person must however be determined through the consideration of the criteria mentioned above.

In the following texts we can recognize that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, and is sent by him. The Father gives the Holy Spirit to those who ask him.

Lk 11,13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" Lk 11,13;

Jn 14,16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 14,17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. Jn 14,16-17;

Jn 14,26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. Jn 14,26;

The fact that on earth the Holy Spirit dwells in those human individuals who have asked the Father that he do so is a proof that he can act in separation from the Father, and independently. And the Spirit of God is even capable of taking on visible form, as we learn from the baptism of the Lord by John the Baptist:

Mt 3,16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, 3,17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." Mt 3,16-17;

And in the next passage, Mk 13,11, we are told that the Holy Spirit will speak for the saints who are persecuted when they stand before their judges. What he speaks and how he speaks is his own free decision.

Mk 13,11 "When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit. Mk 13,11;

He will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment. He will also bear witness to the Lord Jesus, and he testifies at the same time, with our spirit, that we are children of God.

Jn 16,5 "But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ’Where are You going?’ 16,6 "But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 16,7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 16,8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 16,9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 16,10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 16,11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. Jn 16, 5-11;

Jn 15,26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me. Jn 15,26;

Rom 8,15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 8,16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God. Rom 8,15-16;

Gal 4,6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Gal 4, 6;

The statement made in the passage below, Eph 2,18, that we have access to the Father through the Holy Spirit, on the one hand underlines the fact that the Spirit acts on the basis of free and independent decision ‒ he decides to whom access shall be granted ‒ while on the other hand he must also take responsibility for his decision, and may not grant access to a person who is not worthy of it.

Eph 2,17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; 2,18 for through Him we both (Jews and Christians) have our access in one Spirit to the Father. Eph 2,17-18;

Last but not least, the command given by the Lord in Mt 28,19, where he bids the disciples to baptize all nations in the name of the Father and the Son and also the Holy Spirit, is an indication of the fact that both the Son and the Holy Spirit ‒ notwithstanding their affiliation with the Father ‒ are Persons in their own right. Otherwise, after all, it would have been sufficient for the Lord to command, “baptize them in the name of God”.

Mt 28,18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 28,19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Mt 28,18,19;

Peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits, and from Jesus Christ.

Rev 1,4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 1,5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood. Rev 1, 4- 5;

After God, who is the first to be named, John speaks of the seven Spirits who are before the throne of God ‒ that is, the Holy Spirit ‒ and then mentions Jesus Christ in third place.

It seems, then, that on this basis we have found the criteria to be fulfilled which would prove the Holy Spirit to be a Person in his own right.

There remains, as was to be expected, the other question, which is all the more in need of clarification. This question is the actual reason (though this is not often openly admitted) for the discussion of the doctrine of the Trinity. I mean the question of the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Let us start with the scriptural passages referred to at the outset by T. Cramer, which in the author’s opinion prove “that the faith in one sole and unique God was the most important article of faith for early Christianity”.

Mt 23,8 "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 23,9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.23,10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 23,11 "But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 23,12 "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted. Mt 23, 8-12;

Rom 3,21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 3,22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 3,23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 3,24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 3,25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 3,26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 3,27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 3,28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 3,29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,3,30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 3,31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. Rom 3,21-31;

1Cor 8,2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know;8,3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. 8,4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 8,5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 8,6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. 1Cor 8, 2- 6;

Gal 3,18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 3,19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 3,20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. 3,21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 3,22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 3,23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 3,24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 3,25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 3,26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 3,27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. Gal 3,18-27;

1Tim 2,1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2,2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 2,3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 2,4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2,5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 2,6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 2,7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1Tim 2, 1- 7;

Eph 4,3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4,4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 4,5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 4,6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 4,7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Eph 4, 3- 7;

These six scriptural passages do indeed all tell us that there is just one God and Father of all. But if we read more closely and consider the context of these six passages, we can see that in each and every one of them ‒ along with the mention of the one and only God ‒ the Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, is referred to as well.

If we now adduce the criteria mentioned earlier, in the case of the Lord Jesus, at least ‒ by contrast with the Holy Spirit ‒ it is indubitable from the beginning that he was a person. Perhaps pre-eminently in a physical sense, as a man among men, but also in particular ‒ and this is what we intend to investigate here ‒ in his nature as the Son of God.

As can be readily proved, he acted in his own right and was free in making his decisions. The former is shown by the Gospel accounts, the latter for example in the fact that he subordinated his own will to that of the Father, as attested by Lk 22,42. If he had not had the free will to make his own decisions, he would not have been able to subordinate his will to the Father either.

Lk 22,41 And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, 22,42 saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done." Lk 22,41-42;

The Lord also took final responsibility for this decision of his to subordinate his will to that of the Father, through his bearing the consequences ‒ leading him to die on the cross.

As we can see, it is not difficult to demonstrate that Jesus Christ was a person ‒ as was indeed to be expected. The demonstration of his divinity is not such an easy matter. In this connection, critics have repeatedly pointed to three groups of passages:

1. the Lord’s statements that the Father is greater than he is (Jn 10,29; 14,28).

3. And also the indication that even he does not know the day and the hour of the Rapture, but only the Father (Mk 13,32).

From the statement that the Father is greater than the Son we may infer a certain hierarchy within the Godhead, but this in no way proves that the Son is not God ‒ no more than a person’s statement that his bodily father is “greater” than he is would mean that he was demoted to an ape.

The supposed proofs that the Lord suffered from limitations, when we analyze them more closely, show that here it is rather a case of the limited interpretative talent of the various commentators.

Finally the fact that the Lord Jesus does not know the day and the hour of the events of the Last Days, which are known only to the Father, is only a confirmation of his admission that the Father is greater than all (Jn 10,29), and consequently is also greater than the Son.

We can see, then, that these scriptural passages do not by any means permit us to infer a proof of the non-divinity of Jesus Christ. A much clearer proof would have to be demonstrated, at any rate, if it were to be possible to confirm T. Cramer’s assertion that the pre-existence of Jesus Christ cannot be proved.

In the same way as the three criteria earlier supplied us a demonstration of the Lord’s nature as a person, so here the criterion of pre-existence would have to be seen as a fairly clear demonstration of the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Let us remark as a preliminary that the biblical passages cited at the outset, and others like them referring to the one and only God, are of course to be taken as an established article of faith, so that there can be no question here of a “three gods” interpretation, or of anything like polytheism.

But this means, on the other hand, that the pre-existence of the two other Persons of the Trinity ‒ of the Lord Jesus, in this case ‒ is only conceivable in and with the one and only God, the Father. So we would like first to consider those scriptural passages which imply this unity of the Father and the Son.

He who has seen Me has seen the Father; believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me.

Jn 14,8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 14,9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ’Show us the Father’? 14,10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.14,11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 14,12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.14,13 "Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14,14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. Jn 14, 8-14;

Jn 14,15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 14,16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 14,17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. 14,18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 14,19 "After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 14,20 "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 14,21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." Jn 14,15-21;

Jn 14,22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?" 14,23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 14,24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me. 14,25 "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 14,26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. 14,27 "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. 14,28 "You heard that I said to you, ’I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. Jn 14,22-28;

The three extracts from the Gospel of John quoted above show clearly that the Son is in the Father and the Father in the Son. This, though, is not to be understood as implying that God the Father himself was present on earth as Jesus Christ.

The Lord’s saying in Jn 14,9, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father”, does not mean that the physical form of the Lord Jesus is identical with that of the Father. On the contrary, the external form is wholly irrelevant to God’s identity. He can take on any form that he wishes, so that the physical appearance of his immanency is much the same as, for us human beings, the suit that we happen to be wearing. When we are introduced to a person, he will hardly suppose that the suit we have on is an integral component of our personality, or be unable to recognize us on the following day if we are wearing a different one.

But it is perfectly true, on the other hand, that God chose this quite definite physical body of his Son so as to reveal himself to humanity in visible form. In former times no one could see God, seeing that any one who caught a glimpse of God in his glory would have had to die. And subsequently as well, no one has ever seen God since.

But the actual presence of the Father was in the Spirit of the Son. After the baptism of the Lord by John, the Spirit of the Father descends on Jesus in the form of a dove, in Mt 3.16.

Mt 3,16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,3,17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." Mt 3,16-17;

And it was then also this Spirit of the Father that spoke to the Spirit of the Son, and it was the words of the Father which the Son uttered. Consequently the Lord Jesus could also say, in Jn 14,24, “The word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s”.

But here again we must not draw from this the conclusion that the Son was only a mouthpiece for the Father, and no more than a puppet. As we have seen earlier, the Son is a person in his own right, and has complete freedom of decision. But just as, shall we say, a bridegroom voluntarily and with joy responds to the invitation of the officiating pastor at a wedding, and pronounces his assent, so also the Son of God pronounces what the Father, in the Spirit, bids him say.

It must be admitted that the argument thus far has only succeeded in demonstrating at best that in the lifetime of the Lord Jesus the Father was immanent in him, so that he possessed the property of divinity to that extent. The pre-existence of Jesus Christ, as God and in God, has not yet been proved. For this we have to find statements in Scripture which will attest ‒ as far as possible ‒ to the community of the Son with the Father, before the birth of Jesus.

And here we now have the witness of the Lord himself in Jn 6,38:

Jn 6,36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 6,37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 6,38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 6,39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 6,40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." Jn 6,36-40;

If the Lord has come down from heaven, in all consistency he must have been with the Father in heaven before the start of his life on earth.

But in the writings of Paul, as well, we come upon the following representative statement about the Lord in his first Epistle to the Corinthians:

1Cor 8,5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 8,6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. 1Cor 8, 5- 6;

This indication is interesting because it definitely states that all things exist through Jesus Christ. And if we are to take this statement seriously, then “all things” must really mean all things ‒ that is to say, the entire creation, the entire cosmos.

This is just what we are likewise told by Paul, in specific terms, in his Epistle to the Colossians:

All things have been created through Him and for Him, He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Col 1,15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 1,16 For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities ‒ all things have been created through Him and for Him.1,17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. Col 1,15-17;

All things ‒ in the heavens and on earth ‒ have been created through Jesus Christ. And he existed before all things, and in him all things hold together.

This means, then, not just that the Son of God existed before he became man, but that he actually preceded the whole creation, and the entire creation was made by him. But seeing that the creation can only have happened through the agency of God, this consequently confirms that the Son was a part of the one and only God, already at a time preceding the creation.

There are indications of this in the Old Testament as well, in the prophet Micah, for example:

Mi 5,2 "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity." Mi 5, 2;

Here the prophecy is made that the Messiah will go forth from Bethlehem, the town where Jesus was born. And then the prophet adds:

Und auch der Psalmist prophezeit in Ps 45,6-7, dass Gott der Ewige selbst seinen Erstgeborenen gesalbt hat und er daher der Gesalbte (Messias) ist. Und hier heisst es vom Sohn:

Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows.

Ps 45,6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 45,7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows. Ps 45, 6- 7;

And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "and let all the angels of God worship Him".

Hebr 1,5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? And again, "I will be a Father to Him and He shall be a Son to Me"? 1,6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "and let all the angels of God worship Him." 1,7 And of the angels He says, "who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire." 1,8 But of the Son He says, "your throne, O God is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. 1,9 "You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions. Hebr 1, 5- 9;

With that, the pre-existence and divinity of Jesus Christ are unambiguously proved by the Old Testament as well.

But not to the satisfaction of the “Primitive Christian Christadelphian”, it seems. In their essay “Über die Herkunft des Sohnes Gottes Jesus” [“On the Origins of Jesus the Son of God”] we find the following commentary on the passage quoted above (Col 1,15-17):

“(...) Both passages (sc. Rom 8,29 and Col 1,15) provide us with quite fundamental information on the nature of Jesus. On the one hand he is created, a creature, seeing that Col 1,15, when its content is spelt out, runs as follows: He is the firstborn of all creatures”. New Testament textual research furthermore confirms that this sentence is not making any statement about time.” (page 7).

Col 1,15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Col 1,15;

In the most important German versions of the Bible (Elberfelder, Luther, Bengel, etc.) the term used here is “Schöpfung” [creation] and not “Kreatur” [creatures]. Quite apart from this, the author’s assertion that the passage “is not making any statement about time” is plainly and simply incorrect. The term “firstborn”, with or without textual research ‒ and not just among Christian brothers and sisters ‒ is a patently temporal criterion.

“(...) Colossians 1,16 is to be understood in the same sense. The word translated by “through him” is “en” in the Greek original text, and has the sense of “on account of”. (...) According to more recent translations, Colossians 1,16 no longer begins with “t h r o u g h h i m”, but rather with “i n h i m all things were created”. When the passage is expressed in this way we can understand that what is referred to is the new spiritual creation, and not the creation of the world.” (page 12).

Col 1,16 For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities ‒ all things have been created through Him and for Him. Col 1:16;

This argument, then, is intended to refute the idea of the pre-existence of Jesus ‒ first of all, by translating Col 1,15 using the term “creatures” instead of “creation”, in order to preclude a reference to the beginning of all creation, the fashioning of the universe; and on the other hand by attempting to demonstrate that the beginning of Col 1,16 does not, after all, run “through Him (Jesus) all things were created” ‒ which would again lead to the conclusion that Jesus Christ already existed at the beginning of creation, and more, that the whole creation was created through him ‒ but that it should rather read “in him all things have been created.”

Now it is certainly true to say that the beginning of Col 1,16 runs “in (Greek en) him all things have been created.” But the author here studiously passes over the fact that at the end of this verse the statement is repeated again, in more specific terms: “All things have been created through Him and for Him”. And here, as well, we find in the original text the word “di’” (dia), which can only mean “through”.

It is easy to recognize here that a dubious argument is being advanced, in order to prop up a preconceived opinion. This proves on the one hand that the author is aware of the correct interpretation ‒ for otherwise he would not avoid mentioning the unambiguous statement made in the latter part of the verse ‒ while on the other hand he is also speculating on the fact that the reader is not going to reach for his Bible in order to check the context of the passage. When we are then told that “The Primitive Christian (Christadelphian) congregations are a community of serious believing Christians, the exclusive foundation of whose faith is the Word of God as expressed in the Bible”, the question suggests itself why it is that only those parts of the Bible are quoted which fit in with their preconceived opinions, while the other parts which are not in agreement with their own views are quite simply passed over.

But we can find further texts in the Bible as well which do not just confirm the pre-existence of the Lord Jesus, but also demonstrate that as the “Word of God” he carries out the creative will of the Eternal, and so that all worlds were made by him.

In His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Hbr 1,1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 1,2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 1,3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Hbr 1, 1- 3;

So when in Gen 1,3 it is written “Then God said”, it was the Word of God, the second Person of the Trinity, who here acted in the name of his Father.

And for good measure we meet with the same point in John as well, at the beginning of his Gospel, in what amounts to a thoroughgoing and specific confirmation:

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Jn 1,1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1,2 He was in the beginning with God. 1,3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 1,4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 1,5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

1,6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 1,7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 1,8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 1,9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.1,10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 1,11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.1,12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,1,13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

1,14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 1,15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, ’He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’" 1,16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 1,17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 1,18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. Jn 1, 1-18;

John speaks here of the “Word”, and from the larger context of this passage it may be recognized that he is speaking of the Lord Jesus. John likewise confirms: “All things came into being through Him (the “Word” = Jesus Christ), and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”

And then this passage gives us just the statement that we have been looking for:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

- Just like Paul, as we have seen, so John also tells us that the Son of God pre-existed the entire creation: “In the beginning was the Word”.

- And just like Paul, John also tells us that all things were created through the Son of God: “All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”

- Likewise our previous conclusion that the Son must therefore have already been present in the one and only God before the whole of creation finds confirmation here: “And the Word was with God”.

- And finally we are here given an unambiguous and indisputable answer to the question about the divinity of Jesus Christ from which we started: “And the Word was God.”

In view of this demonstration, and in the light of the scriptures, it cannot any longer be doubted that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, existed previously to his becoming man. He even preceded the entire creation. He was in God, and he himself was God. He was not God the Father, but he was as a divine nature the "Word", who as Son of God later should become man.

And as the Lord tells us in the following passage, Jn 17,1-5, he did not simply pre-exist, but in the same manner he enjoys a “post-existence” as well. Since his Raising and Ascension to the Father, he has been glorified once more with the glory which he had before the world was.

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Jn 17,1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 17,2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 17,3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 17,4 "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 17,5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. Jn 17, 1- 5;

On the basis of these conclusions, we can return to the beginning of this analysis. As the Lord himself says in Mt 23,9, we have only one father, namely our Father in heaven. He refers to himself here as a “leader”.

Mt 23,9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 23,10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. Mt 23, 9-10;

In John as well we find statements made by the Lord in which he confirms that the Father is greater than all, and likewise greater than himself.

Jn 10,27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 10,28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.19,29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.10,30 "I and the Father are one." Jn 10,27-30;

Jn 14,28 "You heard that I said to you, ’I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. Jn 14,28;

And this statement was also found earlier on in Paul (1Cor 8,4), who is constantly reminding us that “there is no God but one”.

All these passages witness unambiguously to the fact that Jesus Christ ‒ although himself a part of this one God, and so divine himself ‒ is subordinate to his Father, just as an earthly son is subject to his father. But from this we cannot infer that he is not God ‒ as was demonstrated earlier ‒ nor can we draw from it the conclusion that we humans would not have to pay him any particular regard, and would do better to address ourselves only to the Father directly.

As the following texts prove, quite to the contrary, the Father saw fit to commit all his authority to the Son. And here we may assume that God will not either break his word or revoke his disposition.

Jn 3,35 "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 3,36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Jn 3,25-26;

Mt 11,25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. 11,26 "Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. 11,27 "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Mt 11,25-27;

Mt 28,17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 28,18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Mt 28,17-18;

Jn 14,6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 14,7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." 14,8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jn 14, 6- 8;

All authority has been given to the Son, and any one who supposes that in spite of this he might be able to obtain something from the Father directly is committing a fatal error. The Father has completely withdrawn from the exercise of authority, committing his authority to the Son. Only what we ask in the name of the Son will be well pleasing to the Father. One who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father either.

The Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father..

Jn 16,23 "In that day (sc. of the resurrection of the Lord) you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. 16,24 "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full. 16,25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.

16,26 "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf; 16,27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father. 16,28 "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father." Jn 16,23-28;

They truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

Jn 17,5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. 17,6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 17,7 "Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 17,8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. Jn 17, 5- 8;

Jn 5,22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 5,23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. Jn 5,22-23;

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

1Jn 2,22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 2,23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 2,24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 1Jn 2,22-24;

The above passage, 1Jn 2,22-24, speaks of the Antichrist, who will deny that Jesus is the Christ. This is one of those passages which encourage us to suppose that the Antichrist will appear as a “substitute Christ”. He will claim to be the real “Christ”, the real “Son of God”, and will endeavor to prove this by signs and miracles. Of course then he must also deny that Jesus was the true Christ and the true Son of God.

He can only implement this strategy, admittedly, if the image of Jesus of Nazareth by that time has already been cast in a suitably negative light. One possible method of paving the way through “character assassination” would of course be to deny Jesus his divine Sonship, through refusing to recognize his divinity and demoting him to an ordinary human being. If this view should prevail, it would be an easy matter for the Antichrist when he comes to give the impression, through the exercise of his satanic conjuring powers, that he is now the real “Christ/Messiah”, the real “Son of God” and that Satan is the real “God the Father”.

Apart from this it is however a peculiar fact that any one would agree that a child born of the union of two different races of humanity combines the genes of his two parents, and is characterized by these both physically (skin color, physique), psychologically (mentality, character) and mentally (intelligence and talents). Only when the child springs from the union between God and man is the fact disputed, the assertion being made that the Son of God inherited only the genes of his mother, and so was only man and not God.

He who does not believe in the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Jn 3,35 "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 3,36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Jn 3,35-36;

He who believes in the Son, has the Father as well; but he who denies the Son does not have the Father either, and the wrath of God abides on him.

Especially in view of this last statement made here, in Jn 3,36, it may be recognized that a discussion of the Trinity is completely outmoded. However one chooses to see God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, one sole thing is decisive: that is, whether we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God ‒ as the Son of God and God himself, that is ‒ and are obedient to him, or not. If we do, we will also have the Holy Spirit, and with his help, the right understanding of the one and only God, our Father in Heaven. If we do not obey the Son, we cannot be pleasing to God, and any amount of theological sophistry will not save us from his wrath.

A popular image, in this connection, is that of the Jehovah’s Witnesses:

“Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, and yet its light is not of equal birth with the source from which its light derives, the sun, so in the same way Jesus is a reflection of the glory of God, without his glory being of equal birth with that of God.”

This statement, now, is incorrect, inasmuch as Scripture teaches us the exact opposite:

Mt 16,27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Mt 16,27;

Mk 88,38 "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." Mk 8,38;

When he comes, the Lord will not be a “reflection” of the glory of God: he will come, on the contrary, in the very glory of his Father, without any kind of diminution.

Furthermore, the simile just quoted completely misses, in logical terms, the point of the unambiguous utterances of Holy Scripture. If we stay with the “sun” of this comparison, it is an objective fact that sunlight ‒ the light radiated from the sun ‒ derives from the process of nuclear transformation on the sun’s surface. From this it follows that the real source of sunlight is the fusion of helium and hydrogen atoms.

And just as the sun could give us neither light nor heat without nuclear fusion, so without Jesus Christ neither grace nor mercy would be granted us by God. Only through the vicarious death of the Son of God on the cross for our sins we can get forgiveness from God and his love and mercy.

Therefore God the Almighty has sent his Son Jesus Christ as a light to the world, as the following scriptural passages testify.

Jn 1,1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1,2 He was in the beginning with God. 1,3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 1,4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 1,5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. Jn 1, 1- 5;

Jn 8,12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." Jn 8,12;

Jn 12,46 "I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.12,47 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 12,48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 12,49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 12,50 "I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me." Jn 12,46-50;

One who rejects this light that the Father has sent into the world rejects God himself and will be judged on the Last Day by all those words which he was unwilling to accept, in spite of having read them.

And now Tomas Cramer asserts as quoted above in Discourse 26:

“Christ was begotten ... and was a man. Any views that go beyond this are not biblical.”

If we consider the biblical passages following, however, we will come to a completely different conclusion:

Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.

Phil 2,5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 2,6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 2,7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 2,8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 2,9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 2,10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth. Phil 2, 5-10;

For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him because He was making Himself equal with God.

Jn 5,17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." 5,18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. Jn 5,17-18;

While Paul here confirms, in his Epistle to the Philippians, that Christ Jesus was in the form of God and equal to God, John reports that precisely this was what the Jews disputed, so that they actually sought to kill him because he said that God was his Father, and so declared that he himself was also God.

We see, then, that the view that Jesus Christ was not God, but just a human being, was also represented at that time among the Jews. And just this complaint, that he was a man and yet claimed to be God, indeed was later the reason why the high priest condemned Jesus to death for having blasphemed against God.

He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy.

Mt 26,59 Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, so that they might put Him to death. 26,60 They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two came forward, 26,61 and said, "This man stated, ’I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.’"

26,62 The high priest stood up and said to Him, "Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?" 26,63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." 26,64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. 26,65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy; 26,66 what do you think?" They answered, "He deserves death!" 26,67 Then they spat in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others slapped Him, 26,68 and said, "Prophesy to us, You Christ; who is the one who hit You?" Mt 26,59-68;

Jn 20,26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." 20,27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."

20,28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 20,29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." Jn 20,26-29;

Thomas here addresses the Lord as “My Lord and my God!”. And whereas John reports in Revelation (Rev 22,9) that the angel before whom he fell down, taking him for God, told him: “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book; worship God”, Jesus here replied: “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.” Jesus, then, did not contradict Thomas when he referred to him as his God.

And finally John also gives quite specific expression, in his first Epistle, to the fact that Jesus Christ is the true God:

We are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

1Jn 5,20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 1Jn 5,20;

These then are unambiguous and irrefutable proofs, based on Scripture, that Jesus Christ - besides of the Father who is greater than he, was himself also God.

Any one who denies that Jesus Christ is God, and asserts that he was only a man, is therefore accusing him of that same "blasphemy" which gave the high priest a reason to condemn him to death. He thus condemns him once more, and strikes him in the face as well, as the Jews did then, and brands the savior of whole humanity as a cheat and confidence trickster into the bargain.

(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)

(Would Paul not have spoken about the Trinity? / Reply TC01, 2002-06-06 )

I was wholly astonished to find some of my comments on the Primitive Christian point of view with reference to the one and only God reproduced here. Please allow me the opportunity of briefly taking issue with your analysis. First of all, I was put off to find that in the course of your essay you have no qualms about insulting those from whom you differ. The failure to comprehend the humanity of Jesus Christ as having been begotten by God is characterized by you as (and I quote) “a case of the limited interpretative talent of the various commentators”. I do not think such a choice of words is fitting, in view of the seriousness of this weighty theme. What kind of picture will it give to the unprejudiced seeker? Do Christians really have to abuse one another?

Turning now to the content of your analysis:
1. It is a pity that at the end of your analysis you lump the Primitive Christian (Christadelphian) congregation together with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, throwing them all, so to speak, into the same “pot” ‒ and that without a word of qualification. There are actually considerable differences between us and this congregation. Please refer to our Internet pages [www.urchristen.de] for information on this point. It is a fact that for us Primitive Christians, Christ is “not simply human”, as you write, thereby failing to honor him in the way that the authors of the New Testament expect.

2. Furthermore it is noticeable that you make great theological efforts to explain something which is not in keeping with the words of the Bible. The suppositious “proofs” that the Spirit can act in separation from and independently of God are not in conformity with the Bible (though perhaps they do conform to that “speculative idealism” you mention?)
Paul proclaimed the “all the counsel of God” (Acts 20,27). Would he here have forgotten to mention something like the “Trinity”?

3. Jesus’ command to baptize the nations cannot be taken to indicate a “Trinity” (!) either. The latter was completely unheard of in the first two centuries AD (please see, in this connection, what form of words the apostles did actually use in baptizing converts later on ...). Incidentally, you have reproduced the dogma in an incorrect form. The history of the development of church dogma attests unambiguously that there is no distinction between these three Persons.
"...without distinction..." are the words of the dogma in question. How can you analyze a matter with which you are imperfectly acquainted?

4. You object that Chapter 1 of the Epistle to the Colossians has not been quoted in its entirety. The only reason for that was that it would not have made any difference to the sense of the commentary that has been given. It simply was not necessary to do so. Here too I find it a pity that you should accuse us of willful negligence.
Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that “firstborn of all creatures” cannot be meant in a biological sense, as there was no creature that could have given birth to him.

You adduce the Epistle to the Hebrews as a proof of the eternal pre-existence of the Messiah. Proofs of this nature are completely subject to a conclusion that is drawn from various individual verses. For example: “... God in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world” (Hbr 1,1-2). Some suppose this verse to be a proof of the fact that Jesus created the world. But the correct translation of this verse is: “through whom HE (God) made the aeons”. There is no proof here that Jesus made the heavens and the earth. What is being expressed here is that the One God, who according to His own statement was not accompanied by any helpers in the act of creation (Isa 44,24 ‒ how can you simply pass over this in silence?) made the aeons of human history with Jesus as the central focus of his intent, before speaking to us through His Son “in these last days”. It is not difficult to grasp that the life and death of the Messiah, and his rulership of the world, have an effect for all time ‒ past, present and future. The same picture, with Jesus as the center of God’s plan for the world, is to be found in Col 1,15-18. In the Epistle to the Hebrews it is particularly significant that God did not speak through the Son in the Old Testament, but only in “these last days” (Hbr 1,2). This gives us a powerful indication that the Son did not exist eternally but only came into existence as the historical Jesus. This is likewise shown by the significance of Jesus’ line of descent.

Tomas Cramer: e-mail: cramer@urchristen.de / http://www.urchristen.de

Circumstance that some biblical commentators propound fantasies about Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, being “limited” in certain respects, led me to give utterance to my feeling that it might here be a case of the limited interpretative talent of the various commentators. Although not in any way addressed to you in person, you take these remarks as insult and abuse. In what follows you do indeed address me in personal terms, accusing me of ignorance, when you complain “How can you analyze a matter with which you are imperfectly acquainted?”, and I leave it to your judgment whether this choice of words of yours “is in keeping with the seriousness of this weighty theme”. For myself, I would rate both as perfectly normal utterances in the context of a controversial discussion.

You then write: “What kind of picture will it give to the unprejudiced seeker?”, referring presumably to the fact that two differing opinions on a biblical topic are here being advanced in a committed way. But it is just this picture that a genuinely unprejudiced seeker would look to find. On this website, contrasting points of view that are founded on the Bible and free of any kind of dogmatic teaching are put forward, and one of the purposes of this is that the visitor should also have the opportunity of forming an impression of his own, by consulting the Bible and so arriving at an opinion of his own that is well founded.

With reference to your commentary on my analysis:

Point 1.
I am very far from wanting to throw the Christadelphian congregation into the same “pot” as the Jehovah’s Witnesses! Even the most unfriendly reading cannot derive such a view from this passage.

At all events, both communities of faith do agree in the view that Jesus Christ was not God but was merely human. This is all that is expressed by the passage ‒ no more, and no less.

Point 2.
You write: “Paul proclaimed the ’whole purpose of God’ (Acts 20,27). Would he here have forgotten to mention something like the ’Trinity’?”

By no means! Paul gives us a confirmation in Eph 2,18: “For through Him (Christ) we have our access in one Spirit to the Father.”

Point 3:
With reference to Jesus’ command to baptize the nations, you invite me to “see, in this connection, what form of words the apostles did actually use in baptizing converts later on”.

In Mt 28,19 the Lord commands the apostles: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”, and I do not think that the apostles would have neglected to carry out this command of the Lord.

Point 4.
You complain at my reproaching you for not having quoted Chapter 1, verse 16 of the Epistle to the Colossians in its entirety, and justify your view by saying that to have done so would not have made any difference to the sense of your commentary.

And here, even with the best intentions, I cannot follow you. You base your argument that Christ was not the author of the creation, after all, precisely on the fact that the first part of this verse, Col 1,16, has been mistranslated as “For through Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth”, and instead of “through” it should really be “in” (Greek en). and here you are perfectly correct.

And yet the latter part of the verse, summing up the preceding statement, then reads: “All things have been created through Him and for Him”. And here there is also found, in the Greek original, a “through” (Greek dia). This confirms that all things were created “through” Christ, and not just “in” Christ ‒ however you may want to interpret this “in” ‒ which adds up, in my view, to a patent refutation of your statement.

You then say: “Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that ’firstborn of all creatures’ cannot be meant in a biological sense, as there was no creature that could have given birth to him.”

This is just the reason why I wonder why you do not use the generally accepted translation, with “creation”. But quite apart from that, this statement is aimed not at any physical birth but ‒ as Paul specifically indicates three verses further on ‒ at the Resurrection of the Dead:

He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Col 1,15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 1,16 For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities ‒ all things have been created through Him and for Him. 1,17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 1,18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. Col 1,15-18;

And finally you refer to Hbr 1,2, asserting: “Some suppose this verse to be a proof of the fact that Jesus created the world. But the correct translation of this verse is: ’through whom HE (God) made the aeons’. There is no proof here that Jesus made the heavens and the earth.”

I have at all events taken the trouble of checking all my Bibles for this supposed mistake. Here are the results:

GERMAN

1. Elberfelder Bible / digital:

As you can see, this passage is rendered by thirteen translations as “world(s)”, the Jewish New Testament even speaks of the “universe” and only the New World translation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses ‒ for understandable reasons ‒ adopts the rather vague formula “the system of things”.

So if this is really a mistranslation, as you claim, it is at any rate quite widespread.

(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)

(Did God make through His Son the worlds or the “ages”? / Reply TC02, 2002-06-10 )

You are plainly not interested in publishing the truth, but rather in promulgating, in great quantity, a philosophically influenced form of misbelief, which does not become any the truer for being asserted repeatedly.

A good example of this is your listing of the various versions of the Bible (you do not mention the Greek original text), which all make the same statement, but not a word on your part indicates the original Greek word that is used here, let alone what it means. Such a method is enough to frighten off precisely those unprejudiced readers about whom you claim to be so concerned. You claim to be giving a thorough view of the evidence, while some of it is deliberately suppressed. In my view this is not fair.

The Greek word for “worlds” is “aeon” or “aion”. The word is used in the New Testament as a key term for its understanding of history, for its eschatology. In the New Testament the noun “aion” occurs over a hundred times:

a) long period, temporal duration, referring either to a precisely delimited or to an unlimited time, above all when used in connection with a preposition.

b) age of the world, cosmic duration, especially in Matthew when speaking of the end of the world (13, 39; 28, 20). Here the reference is to the course of world events, to world history.

This brief explanation may serve to make my objection in connection with Hbr 1 somewhat clearer to the reader.

Tomas Cramer: e-mail: cramer@urchristen.de / http://www.urchristen.de

I would prefer to leave it to the reader, who is able to decide for himself, to judge your accusation that I promulgate a “philosophically influenced form of misbelief”. I will therefore not take issue with that here. But I take note of the fact that you do not seem to have found any answers to my counterarguments.

The meaning of the Greek aion, is (Menge-Translation): lifetime, life, generation, time, temporal duration, space of time, eternity. This must also have been clear to all the translators of the various versions of the Bible that I have listed. And yet in all their translations the term “world” is used.

The Nestle-Aland translation, by the way, includes the Greek original text.

(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)

(Is it not possible to demonstrate the pre-existence of Christ from Scripture? / Reply WH00, 2002-06-08 )

The very first statement in your extensive essay, in which you give expression to your personal opinion on the Divine Trinity and the pre-existence of Jesus Christ, contains a truth that is incontrovertible: the concept of the Divine “Trinity” ‒ and, one may add, the concept of the “pre-existence” of Jesus Christ ‒ is indeed nowhere to be found in the whole of Holy Scripture! Hence the question: why attempt to prove it nonetheless, why belabor such an apparently endless string of biblical quotations? Why not just let God’s Word be as it is? It would be possible, now, to take issue with every single one of the interpretations you make in connection with your argument, and demonstrate that these individual biblical passages can be understood quite differently from the way in which you interpret them, if seen in the light of the entirety of what the Bible has to tell us. But this would have the result that your argument, which is already about twelve A4 pages long, would be followed by twenty A4 pages of counterargument. And who would want, or have time, to read through all that, and check it with the necessary care? I would however be happy to discuss individual biblical passages with any one who is interested. And yet I would like to put three short questions, in order to provide food for thought in connection with the theme under discussion:

1. When God from the very beginning of His revelation of Himself expressly and unambiguously says that He is the “only” God ‒ please see Isaiah 44,6, in this connection ‒ why should you contradict Him so incisively and tell Him that He is obliged to be a “Trinity”?

2. If the Holy Spirit of God, according to the doctrine of the Trinity, is a self-sufficient “Person”, who is then the Father of Jesus Christ ‒ God or the Holy Spirit (see Luke 1,35)?

3. If it is expressly stated in Holy Scripture that Jesus Christ is the bodily descendant of Abraham and David (Matthew 1,1), how can he then have lived before these two men? Is begetting no longer begetting, and birth no longer the coming into being of new life?

From the beginning God has repeatedly emphasized that He is the only God. The whole message of God’s revelation of Himself culminates in the statement: “There is no God other than Yahweh, and Jesus is his Messiah!” This clear biblical statement stands right at the center of God’s revelation! It can be proved that this is an absolutely biblical position if we take three unambiguous biblical passages by way of example. This one and only God revealed himself first of all to Moses with the explanation: “And God said to Moses, ’I AM WHO I AM’; and again God said to Moses, ’Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, “I AM has sent me to you”. And God, furthermore, said to Moses, ’Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, “Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob has sent me to you”. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations. Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say to them, “Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has appeared to me...”’ (Ex 3,14-16). Thereafter this one living and almighty God gave this commandment to His people Israel: “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other God before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God” (Ex 20,2-5). This commandment to reverence the unique and only God may be traced through the whole Bible.

We read also: “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh, our God, shall be your only God! And you shall love Yahweh, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.” (Deut 6,4-5). Jesus Christ refers to this passage in his discussion with a scribe, to whom he explains: “The foremost of all commandments is, ’Hear, O Israel! The LORD our God is one LORD; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the foremost commandment of all.” (Mk 12,29-30).

How absolutely essential it is to have the correct knowledge of God, and a correct understanding of the Son of God, is emphasized by Jesus in his prayer shortly before his death: “Father, the hour has come: glorify Thy Son, that the Son may glorify Thee, even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give eternal life. And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou has sent” (Jn 17,1-3). And so that this may be really clear to all, he again stresses, after having been raised by his Father from the dead (Acts 2,24; Acts 3,15.26; Acts 4,10; Acts 17,31; Rom 4,24; 1.Cor 6,14; etc.), and shortly before his Ascension to the right hand of the Father, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren, and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God” (Jn 20,17).

We have to consult the Bible, then, in order to find out what God and Christ say of themselves. The correct knowledge of God is not a matter to be left to our imagination, for the statements the Bible makes are clear and incontrovertible. And, as Jesus stresses, it depends on our having the correct knowledge of God whether we will be permitted to receive eternal life and live in the Kingdom of God, or not (Jn 17,3).

Walter Hink Walter.Hink@t-online.de

“Why belabor (...) such an apparently endless string of biblical quotations?”

These biblical quotations give the reader the opportunity of immediately checking the statements made, without interrupting his reading, and forming an impression as to whether the argument is grounded in the Bible. Seeing that these quotations are distinguished from the commentary by being in a different font, the reader who is not interested can comfortably skip these passages.

"But this would have the result that your argument, which is already about twelve A4 pages long, would be followed by twenty A4 pages of counterargument. And who would want, or have time, to read through all that and check it with the necessary care?”

If I understand the matter correctly, you, at least, have taken the time to do so. And if we take a look at the contributions on your website, by way of comparison, the contribution on “Israel’s significance in the Last Days” is for example seventeen A4 pages long, and is simply stuffed with biblical quotations (mostly, it must be said, in the form of references).

But you should not underestimate the reader’s capability of judgment either. Most readers know pretty exactly when and where they need to go into the details and when not.

On the theological questions raised:

"The concept of the Divine “Trinity” ‒ and, one may add, the concept of the “pre-existence” of Jesus Christ ‒ is indeed nowhere to be found in the whole of Holy Scripture!"

Although the term “pre-existence” is not found in the Bible, we have a clear proof nonetheless both of the pre-existence and of the “post-existence” of the Son of God in Jn 17,1-5:

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Here the Lord Jesus himself prays to the Father, and asks him to glorify him, after his Ascension into heaven, with that same glory that he already had, with the Father, before the world was. This is an irrefutable proof of the fact that Jesus Christ was already with the Father before the world was created, and so for his pre-existence. This glory was again assumed by the Son of God after his Resurrection and Ascension to the Father.

"1. When God from the very beginning of His revelation of Himself expressly and unambiguously says that He is the “only” God ‒ please see Isaiah 44,6, in this connection ‒ why should you contradict Him so incisively and tell Him that He is obliged to be a “Trinity”?"

Isa 44,6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ’I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. Isa 44, 6;

Here it is stated plainly: I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me. If we now also look at Rev 1,13-18, we find there that a certain “son of man” is spoken of:

Rev 1,13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 1,14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 1,15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 1,16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.

1,17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 1,18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Rev 1,13-18;

This “son of man” reassures John, who as a result of the glory of the appearance of this “son of man” had fallen into a faint, and says to him, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last”. If now we interpret Isa 44,6 ‒ where God says of himself that he is the first and the last ‒ in the sense in which the Christadelphian understand it, then it would have to be the case that we here have to do with God in person. Can that be correct? Obviously not. Here we have to do with Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and he says of himself that he is the first and the last.

If we were to assert, on the other hand, that it is the man Jesus Christ who is making this claim, that would be to put him in competition with God, which would not be correct either. This leaves only one possibility: God is one, and in him is Jesus Christ, his Son. This is confirmed for us too by the Gospel of John:

Jn 1,1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1,2 He was in the beginning with God. 1,3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.1,4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 1,5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. Jn 1, 1- 5;

The “Word” ‒ that is, the Lord Jesus Christ ‒ was with God in the beginning, and he was God.

And with the Holy Spirit we have the same difficulty, if we deny the Divine Trinity. What can we in that case make of the following scriptural passage:

Jn 14,26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. Jn 14,26;

If God is just one, who then is this Holy Spirit, whom he sends here in the name of Christ? According to the view of the Christadelphian, it would have to be God in person who comes here. But that is not possible, for the Lord after all says “whom the Father will send”. But God can hardly send himself.

If here we also check the antithesis, and if we were to assert that the Holy Spirit is completely separate from God, we would land in polytheism, in a belief in a plurality of Gods, which naturally would be equally incorrect. Consequently the same principle must apply here: God is one, and in him is also the Holy Spirit, who nonetheless ‒ just like the Son ‒ can be “sent”, and so can act “externally” to the Father.

"2. If the Holy Spirit of God, according to the doctrine of the Trinity, is a self-sufficient “Person”, who is then the Father of Jesus Christ ‒ God or the Holy Spirit (see Luke 1,35)?"

To answer this, let us look at the relevant account in the Gospel according to Matthew:

Mt 1,18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 1,19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. 1,20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Mt 1,18-20;

From a trinitarian point of view, the statement in Mt 1,20, “For the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit”, presents no problems. God sent the Holy Spirit, who made Mary with child, and seeing that the Holy Spirit in a trinitarian sense is at the same time an integral “component” of God, of course God is the Father of Jesus Christ.

From the point of view of the Christadelphian, however, there results a dilemma from this. What can be made of the statement “the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit?” If there is only one God, how then can the Holy Spirit ‒ in separation from this God ‒ come into the world, and teach people, as in the passage (Jn 14,26) quoted earlier, and here, in Mt 18,20, even beget children? The alternative to this would be that it is God who has sent himself to teach the disciples and to beget Jesus Christ. And that is of course equally senseless.

"3. If it expressly stated in Holy Scripture that Jesus Christ is the bodily descendant of Abraham and David (Matthew 1,1), how can he then have lived before these two men? Is begetting no longer begetting, and birth no longer the coming into being of new life?"

Here you turn out to be ‒ like the scribes in the time of Jesus ‒ in direct contradiction with the statements made by the Lord in Jn 8,58.

Jn 8,53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?" 8,54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ’He is our God’; 8,55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 8,56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

8,57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 8,58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 8,59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple. Jn 8,53-59;

Here Jesus says to the Jews, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.” And just as you say above, “If (...) Christ is the bodily descendant of Abraham and David (Matthew 1,1), how can he then have lived before these two men?”, so the Jews of that time said likewise, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

And here the Lord answers the Jews: “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” ‒ This answer then is addressed to the Christadelphian as well, so long as they do not want to give the Lord grounds to reproach them with being liars.

When you now write in your commentary, “We have to consult the Bible, then, in order to find out what God and Christ say of themselves. The correct knowledge of God is not a matter to be left to our imagination, for the statements the Bible makes are clear and incontrovertible”, you have my unreserved agreement.

"From the beginning God has repeatedly emphasized that He is the only God. The whole message of God’s revelation of Himself culminates in the statement: “There is no God other than Yahweh, and Jesus is his Messiah!” This clear biblical statement stands right at the center of God’s revelation!"

This is actually not a “clear biblical statement” at all. In the form in which you quote it, it is not to be found anywhere in the Bible. Possibly you are confusing it with the Islamic confession of faith: “There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet”.

In view of the scriptural passages quoted earlier, it has been demonstrated that both the Holy Spirit (Jn 14,26) and also the Son (Jn 5,36-37) have been sent by the Father, and can therefore exist and act in spatial (not spiritual!) separation from the Father. That is Trinity in unity.

The unity in Trinity follows from statements in Scripture such as Isa 44,6, but more particularly from 1Cor 8,6:

Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things.

1Cor 8,6 Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. 1Cor 8, 6;

(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)

(In the beginning was the Word - was this Christ or a “plan”? / Reply WH01, 2002-06-10 *)

Perhaps I should now really explain, in rather more detail, the way in which we Primitive Christians (Christadelphian) see the scriptural passages that you repeatedly belabor to prove the supposed pre-existence of Jesus Christ from the point of view of Holy Scripture as a whole. It can then be left to the reader to decide what he thinks more credible. We do not underestimate the reader’s capability of judgment by any means. Most readers know what is logical, and what makes an unconvincing impression. And “logic” is at issue here in a most particular manner, seeing that the “Word” in John 1,1 does not read “Jesus”, but “logos”! (...)

If we take into account that in his mode of expression John was indeed heavily influenced by Greek thought (this is what makes his Gospel so very different, both stylistically and in the choice of words, from the other three Gospels), the introduction to the Gospel according to John, when freely translated into an everyday speech idiom, would read as follows:

“In the beginning God had a plan: he had a cherished intention, and thought about it speculatively and in a well considered manner, foreseeing also its consequences and the results for Him and for His creation”. And as at the beginning there indeed existed nothing but God alone, He ‒ logically enough ‒ was this plan, this intention, the ’logos’. Therefore John writes: “And the Word was God” ‒ a logical conclusion! (...)

With a view to this man, His Son, God created all things! Consequently the statement that “through him” God created all things would be better translated as “with a view to him” (Jesus) God created all things! (...)

Through this begetting by means of the Holy Spirit, a human being was conceived by Mary who in terms of his descent could indeed in truth, and in accordance with the scriptures, be addressed and referred to as the descendant (seed) of Abraham (Gen 22,17 and Gal 3,16) and as “David’s son” (2Sam 7,12-16; Isa 11,1-1-9; Mt 1,1) and as the “Son of Man” (Dan 7,13; Mt 8,20). If Jesus had pre-existed, such attributions would be impossible and untenable. Any apparent indications that Jesus was with God in person from the beginning must be subordinated to this fact. (...)

In view of these facts ‒ the plan of God, and the carrying out of His intention ‒ all these biblical passages appear plain and logical to us Primitive Christians (Christadelphian), even when John writes: “This is He on behalf of whom I said, ’After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for he existed before me’” (Jn 1,30), and even when Jesus says, “before Abraham was born, I am”. For Jesus says, in the same breath, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad” (Jn 8,56).

What day did Abraham see? The day of the glory of Jesus Christ, when he comes in power and glory to establish the Kingdom of God on earth! Did Abraham see this day? How could he see this day if it was in the future? He did not see it directly. He saw it in his heart, in faith, because he was acquainted with God’s promises. He saw that which did not yet exist, and saw it as a reality, because it had been promised by God. (...)

I have gone into this theme in so much detail not in order to throw out petty controversial questions, but because we are searching for the TRUTH of the Word of God (Jn18,38 and Jn 17,17) all our lives long. We hope that with this explanation we have succeeded in providing you with some useful food for thought.

Walter Hink Walter.Hink@t-online.de

*In view of the extreme length of this contribution, those passages which were not directly concerned with the theme at issue have been left out.

"If we take into account that in his mode of expression John was indeed heavily influenced by Greek thought (this is what makes his Gospel so very different, both stylistically and in the choice of words, from the other three Gospels), the introduction to the Gospel according to John, when freely translated into an everyday speech idiom, would read as follows:

“In the beginning God had a plan: he had a cherished intention, and thought about it speculatively and in a well considered manner, foreseeing also its consequences and the results for Him and for His creation”. And as at the beginning there indeed existed nothing but God alone, He ‒ logically enough ‒ was this plan, this intention, the ’logos’. Therefore John writes: “And the Word was God” ‒ a logical conclusion! (...)"

I would like now to confront this interpretation of yours with the actual scriptural text:

You want then to translate the “Word” in Jn 1,1 as “plan”. But what can you make of this “plan” in verse 4: “In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men”? Do you not see that here you are doing violence both to the “Word” in Jn 1,1 and also to the Word of God in its entirety? This refers to the Lord Jesus, as also do the subsequent verses in this chapter, which still relate to the “Word” of the first verse:

Jn 1,10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 1,11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. Jn 1,10-11;

Jn 1,14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 1,15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, ’He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’" Jn 1,14-15;

Who are we to suppose John to be referring to when he says, “He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me”? Was it the “plan”, or was it the Son of God?

Of course “logos” is the word used in Jn 1,1, and not “Jesus”. No one has ever claimed the opposite. But quite apart from the logical connections ‒ seeing that you too have belabored the issue of logic here ‒ which result from this chapter, and which in normal circumstances would be unmistakable, you must, as one familiar with the Bible, know that the actual basis for this interpretation of the Logos in Jn 1,1 as Jesus Christ is to be looked for in Revelation (likewise written by John). There we read:

He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19,11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 19,12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 19,13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. Rev 19,11-13;

Or what do you think, who is being spoken of here? The “plan” of God? This is indeed the background to the being of Jesus Christ, that he is the “Word of God”. That is why he also forms part of God, and why it is also written in Jn 1,1, “And the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” just as the Spirit of God is also part of God.

When God said, in the beginning, “Let there be...”, this was the Word of God, it was Jesus Christ, who called all things into existence. That is why Jn 1,3 reads, “All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” That is the very Word of God.

In your next statement, however, you try to dispute precisely this implication:

"With a view to this man, His Son, God created all things! Consequently the statement that “through him” God created all things would be better translated as “with a view to him” (Jesus) God created all things! (...)"

If God created all things “with a view to him”, then he would not have created them “through him”. In Col 1,16, though, we find not “with a view to” but “through”:

And if you think that it would be “better translated... as ’with a view to him’”, then you are arguing against your own better judgment. For you must know that the Greek original text contains not “with a view to” but quite plainly “through” (Greek dia). So there is no “better” translation available, unless you dislike what is written here and want to replace it with something else.

"Through this begetting by means of the Holy Spirit, a human being was conceived by Mary who in terms of his descent could indeed in truth, and in accordance with the scriptures, be addressed and referred to as the descendant (seed) of Abraham (Gen 22,17 and Gal 3,16) and as “David’s son” (2Sam 7,12-16; Isa 11,1-1-9; Mt 1,1) and as the “Son of Man” (Dan 7,13; Mt 8,20). If Jesus had pre-existed, such attributions would be impossible and untenable. Any apparent indications that Jesus was with God in person from the beginning must be subordinated to this fact."

You hold, then, that because Jesus Christ was born of a woman, his mother Mary, he must have been completely and exclusively human. What then can you make of the fact that he was conceived by the Holy Spirit? Do you think that the portion of the Holy Spirit that was involved in the begetting dissolved into nothing? Every human child whose parents belong to different races will show genetic characteristics derived from both parents. And you think, when God begets a Son, that the divine component will dissolve into thin air? And then you want, as well, to put these biblical indications of the divine descent of the Son of God in a somehow “subordinate” position?

Although the Bible explains the matter more than once, it sees that you have not yet realized that Jesus Christ has two lines of descent: a human one, which goes back, by way of his mother, to David and Abraham, and a divine one, which goes back, by way of the Holy Spirit, to God. Seeing that you cite the human line of descent and are clearly acquainted with it, I would like to present to you here once more the divine line of descent:

An angel of the Lord here confirms to Joseph that the child of Mary has been begotten by the Holy Spirit.

Mt 22,41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 22,42 "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They said to Him, "The son of David." 22,43 He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ’Lord,’ saying, 22,44 ’The LORD said to my Lord, “sit at My right hand, until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet"’? 22,45 "If David then calls Him ’Lord,’ how is He his son?" 22,46 No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question. Mt 22,41-46;

Just like the Christadelphian, the Pharisees too asserted that Jesus was a (human) descendant, a “son” of David. And the Lord then quoted Psalm 110,1, where David, being filled with the Holy Spirit, says: “The LORD said to my Lord...”, meaning by “my Lord” the Son of God, Jesus Christ. And when the Lord Jesus then asked the Pharisees how he could be David’s son, when David calls him “Lord”, they held their tongues and did not dare to say anything more.

We find a very similar situation in relation to Abraham, as has been referred to before, but for the sake of completeness let us quote the passage here once again:

Jn 8,53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?" 8,54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ’He is our God’; 8,55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 8,56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 8,57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 8,58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 8,59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple. Jn 8,53.59;

The Jews reproached Jesus, and accused him of valuing himself too highly in placing himself above Abraham. And the Lord said to them, “You have not come to know the Father”, and “Abraham rejoiced to see My day”.

When the Jews then objected to this, saying, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” ‒ thus simply wanting to deny that Jesus had already existed before Abraham ‒ Jesus told them: “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” This means that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, did actually exist before Abraham.

And finally we have the clear statement by the Lord that confirms his pre-existence:

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

The Lord here asks the Father to glorify him with that glory which he had with the Father, already before the world was. For “world”, the Greek original text here has “kosmos”.

The Christadelphian, however, reject all these proofs, and claim that the Word of God, the Logos, is simply the “plan” of God.

"In view of these facts ‒ the plan of God, and the carrying out of His intention ‒ all these biblical passages appear plain and logical to us Primitive Christians (Christadelphian),

even when John writes: “This is He on behalf of whom I said, ’After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for he existed before me’” (Jn 1,30),

and even when Jesus says, “before Abraham was born, I am”.

For Jesus says in the same breath, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad” (Jn 8,56).

What day did Abraham see? The day of the glory of Jesus Christ, when he comes in power and glory to establish the Kingdom of God on earth! Did Abraham see this day? How could he see this day if it was in the future? He did not see it directly. He saw it in his heart, in faith, because he was acquainted with God’s promises. He saw that which did not yet exist, and saw it as a reality, because it had been promised by God."

And now, you do not hesitate to see the statement made by the Lord, “Before Abraham was born, I am” as likewise insignificant, and to supply a more suitable interpretation for the “day” seen by Abraham.

I am sorry, I have made the most honest efforts, but it appears that, in spite of all these demonstrations on the basis of Scripture, I have been unable to reach a common understanding with you. And if you will not acknowledge the authority of unmistakable scriptural statements, you have rendered the discussion unprofitable. Consequently I think that further argument would not get us anywhere, and that the discussion had better end here.

Discourse 26 - The Trinity: an unbiblical concept?

(The Trinity: an unbiblical concept? / Article TC00, 2001-01-28 +))

The doctrine of the Trinity.

The analysis.

(Would Paul not have spoken about the Trinity? / Reply TC01, 2002-06-06 )

(Did God make through His Son the worlds or the “ages”? / Reply TC02, 2002-06-10 )

(Is it not possible to demonstrate the pre-existence of Christ from Scripture? / Reply WH00, 2002-06-08 )

(In the beginning was the Word - was this Christ or a “plan”? / Reply WH01, 2002-06-10 *)